"It seems to me that the manifestation of Today's church is much closer to upholding those ideals than at any other time in history. After all they are teaching inclusion, love, understanding, compassion, you see where this is going.
Besides, is not the Pope gods chosen spokesperson on Earth? Who are you to question gods will, he works in mysterious ways after all."
That is part of a social media debate I had with a self declared atheist (Previous post: A Passionate Discussion). Though he doesn't recognize the authority of the Catholic Church, he does perceive the liberalizing attitude of Cardinal Bergoglio (aka: Pope Francis). What he doesn't understand is the mission of the Church and the legitimate duties of the pope and all churchmen.
The Church has a two part mission with one purpose. The two parts are: to teach the entire world of Christ, about Christ and the commandments of Christ, and secondly, to administer the sacraments ordained by Christ, which repair our souls, absolve our souls of sins and open the door of heaven. Those two parts are the foundation of Church's singular purpose, which is to orient us towards God and shepherd us through the glorious portal.
The teachings and commandments of Christ are rock solid constant and will never change. The way to heaven is narrow, and few find it because it requires the surrender of the self for Christ; a putting away of pride and self-love, a most difficult thing without a coach. Due to this constancy, the Church cannot be "moved" to the left or right; teachings cannot be amended or changed to fit the times. Changing social norms do not broaden the pathway to heaven. What was a sin 2000 years ago is a sin today and will always be and the consequences remain exactly the same.
Cardinal Bergoglio, with his liberalizing attitude, in "teaching inclusion, love, understanding, compassion", which are euphemisms for ratifying the sins of the flesh, is simply leading souls astray, away from the rock solid Church and away from eternal life. My atheist friend got one thing right, "God works in mysterious ways."
Do not fall for this trap. Remain constant in your love of Christ and keep the old and still valid moral standards. If the world persecutes you for standing with Christ, be glad, for you will be blessed and will have a valid hope of hearing the greatest words one can hear, "Well done, good and faithful servant."
1st: you didn't refute anything, and to claim so is very insulting. In point of fact this conversation began with me pointing out the disgusting history of the church, you asking to refute my claims and then instead of doing so launching into the same tired old arguments that have been put forth and refuted a thousand times. I was trying to end this discussion without having to go down this path because it never ends well but you refused so here we go. Remember, you wanted this:
Our Lady of Guadalupe. It's a painting. Some people claim they can see reflections of the past in here eyes. Others don't. Not very amazing "proof" of an all powerful god who can supposedly do anything. I've seen it, it's a very pretty painting.
The Tilma is literally the fiber mat on which the painting is painted. I'm assuming you are referring to the fact it hasn't decayed as proof of god? Again, pretty week "proof" if true, but here's the thing. It was tested and found to be made from hemp, not cactus as the church claims, and hemp is one of the most robust natural materials out there, again, hardly miraculous. Oh, and it doesn't baffle anyone that researches it, only those that blindly follow.
Our lady of Fatima. Three children see a vision of what they think is the Virgin Mary telling them she will perform a miracle at a certain time and place. The time arrives, thousands gather, and witness....clouds, then the sun. Some claim the sun was blurry and spinning, others don't. This is your proof? There is more intrigue in one of the statues that supposedly can drink milk in India, although those can be explained as well.
Our lady of Lourdes. Again, a child, I'm seeing a pattern here, claims to see the Virgin Mary in a spring. Supposedly if you drink from the spring you get cured of what ails you. Millions over the years drink and millions are cured, oh my god it's a miracle. Well, not really, millions did drink and there were a few (.000035%) that showed possible improvement in their conditions. Again, not much of a miracle for an all powerful god .
The Bible. The Bible includes both the old and new testaments. You claim it was assembled in Latin in the 300s and was the only version for 1100 years. Well, not quite. The Old Testament was fist written down around 400 BCE and "finished" around 116 BCE, in Hebrew. I put "finished" in quotes because people change it to fit their own needs regularly even back then, more on that later.
The New Testament was originally written in Greek, not Latin as you claim, was hardly the only version, and was changed many many times over the years. Remember when Constantine, that emperor of the eastern Roman Empire changed the capital to Constantinople, he had his own version written, that was in circa 330 CE. That's only one example.
So there you go, I have addressed all your claims, I'm sure you have more, they can be debunked too, but as a true believer that won't matter to you at all. You, on the other hand, never addressed any of mine, I wonder what that means?
Now, my turn.
You called me arrogant, not very Christian of you, but what is more arrogant, to claim to know exactly, and fully, the only way to eternal life or to say that I will live my life the best I can and hope others do the same?
"To solve the poverty crisis in Africa we need to get rid of the people." I never said that, you are trying to put words into my mouth, in effect lying, again not very Christian. What I did say was that the church has made the AIDS crises exponentially worse by preventing condom usage, and they have, you never addressed that point, probably because you know you can't.
You think my worldview is short? Yours is based entirely on your particular interpretation of a book that you don't even know the history of, as I demonstrated above by correcting your easily disprovable statements about the Bible.
You think that because multiple religions exist that one must be true, ergo it's yours. You claim this bothers me. Nothing could be further from the truth. I use the existence of multiple religions as evidence that NONE are true, among mounds of other evidence. Your conclusions require mental gymnastics of the sort only those trying to cram an absurd belief into the world are capable of.
I feel sorry for you, I truly do. You were brainwashed as a child into believing you had to behave a certain way, believe a certain thing, give money to a certain person, in order to avoid eternal torment. It should be criminally punishable child abuse.
You probably believed in Santa Clause at one point too, most of us did. A magical man who knows everything you do and loves you no matter what but will bring you coal if you misbehave and toys if you don't. Sound familiar? Santa is a gateway drug. I wish you could throw off the shackles of mythology that have so clouded your mind so you could see the beauty and wonder that is all around us, and has nothing to do with any gods. I fear it is too late for you but I won't give up hope, you have wasted enough of your life on fairy tales constructed to control you.
If you want to pray for me, go ahead if it makes you happy, you a literally saying that you will do nothing as that's what prayer is, nothing, just thoughts. I on the other hand will continue to work and try and make the world better for all of us, you and me.
And remember, I never called you any names, never attacked your faith, and even gave you an out for this whole conversation. You didn't want it, so this is the result.
Take care
Our Lady of Guadalupe. It's a painting. Some people claim they can see reflections of the past in here eyes. Others don't. Not very amazing "proof" of an all powerful god who can supposedly do anything. I've seen it, it's a very pretty painting.
The Tilma is literally the fiber mat on which the painting is painted. I'm assuming you are referring to the fact it hasn't decayed as proof of god? Again, pretty week "proof" if true, but here's the thing. It was tested and found to be made from hemp, not cactus as the church claims, and hemp is one of the most robust natural materials out there, again, hardly miraculous. Oh, and it doesn't baffle anyone that researches it, only those that blindly follow.
Our lady of Fatima. Three children see a vision of what they think is the Virgin Mary telling them she will perform a miracle at a certain time and place. The time arrives, thousands gather, and witness....clouds, then the sun. Some claim the sun was blurry and spinning, others don't. This is your proof? There is more intrigue in one of the statues that supposedly can drink milk in India, although those can be explained as well.
Our lady of Lourdes. Again, a child, I'm seeing a pattern here, claims to see the Virgin Mary in a spring. Supposedly if you drink from the spring you get cured of what ails you. Millions over the years drink and millions are cured, oh my god it's a miracle. Well, not really, millions did drink and there were a few (.000035%) that showed possible improvement in their conditions. Again, not much of a miracle for an all powerful god .
The Bible. The Bible includes both the old and new testaments. You claim it was assembled in Latin in the 300s and was the only version for 1100 years. Well, not quite. The Old Testament was fist written down around 400 BCE and "finished" around 116 BCE, in Hebrew. I put "finished" in quotes because people change it to fit their own needs regularly even back then, more on that later.
The New Testament was originally written in Greek, not Latin as you claim, was hardly the only version, and was changed many many times over the years. Remember when Constantine, that emperor of the eastern Roman Empire changed the capital to Constantinople, he had his own version written, that was in circa 330 CE. That's only one example.
So there you go, I have addressed all your claims, I'm sure you have more, they can be debunked too, but as a true believer that won't matter to you at all. You, on the other hand, never addressed any of mine, I wonder what that means?
Now, my turn.
You called me arrogant, not very Christian of you, but what is more arrogant, to claim to know exactly, and fully, the only way to eternal life or to say that I will live my life the best I can and hope others do the same?
"To solve the poverty crisis in Africa we need to get rid of the people." I never said that, you are trying to put words into my mouth, in effect lying, again not very Christian. What I did say was that the church has made the AIDS crises exponentially worse by preventing condom usage, and they have, you never addressed that point, probably because you know you can't.
You think my worldview is short? Yours is based entirely on your particular interpretation of a book that you don't even know the history of, as I demonstrated above by correcting your easily disprovable statements about the Bible.
You think that because multiple religions exist that one must be true, ergo it's yours. You claim this bothers me. Nothing could be further from the truth. I use the existence of multiple religions as evidence that NONE are true, among mounds of other evidence. Your conclusions require mental gymnastics of the sort only those trying to cram an absurd belief into the world are capable of.
I feel sorry for you, I truly do. You were brainwashed as a child into believing you had to behave a certain way, believe a certain thing, give money to a certain person, in order to avoid eternal torment. It should be criminally punishable child abuse.
You probably believed in Santa Clause at one point too, most of us did. A magical man who knows everything you do and loves you no matter what but will bring you coal if you misbehave and toys if you don't. Sound familiar? Santa is a gateway drug. I wish you could throw off the shackles of mythology that have so clouded your mind so you could see the beauty and wonder that is all around us, and has nothing to do with any gods. I fear it is too late for you but I won't give up hope, you have wasted enough of your life on fairy tales constructed to control you.
If you want to pray for me, go ahead if it makes you happy, you a literally saying that you will do nothing as that's what prayer is, nothing, just thoughts. I on the other hand will continue to work and try and make the world better for all of us, you and me.
And remember, I never called you any names, never attacked your faith, and even gave you an out for this whole conversation. You didn't want it, so this is the result.
Take care
Billy: Take care.
...just to clear the air some from a subject of which we are both very passionate, my feelings are not hurt and I too am impressed with our ability to go to the mat on a subject which has caused wars, without too much rancor. If I crossed the line with name calling, I do apologize. You were right, this conversation has run it's course and I sign out by wishing you and your family peace and prosperity in the future.
(4th commentator)
4th: Dude.....I think I understand why you took the time you did on this thread, but the reality is such, you cannot convince a drug addict to stop abusing drugs, they have to choose to themselves. This guy is seriously a waste of your time. Think of all the better, positive and productive things you could have spent YOUR valuable time on. Save these conversations for the people listening, not the people who are shouting.
Billy: I have learned my lesson. Thanks.
1st: that was actually pretty clever, you made me chuckle. Thanks for that.
(end)
I now feel like a rodeo cowboy who rode the bull; my butt hurts, I have mud in my face and the bull is still an atheist.
"To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible." St Thomas Aquinas