I got into a lively social media discussion with a man who supports the idea of a single payer healthcare system. My objection centered around the fact that universal healthcare can only drive a country deeper into debt and we are already in over our heads in every major economy in the world.
"I don't think you really understand how debt works for country's (sic), it's not the same as for individuals."
He is right on three counts.
It isn't the same, as for individuals, because the federal government made themselves the sole source of money (Legal Tinder Act) and they created the Central Bank (The Fed), which can backstop their borrowing.
Congress is perpetually running for office and they invariably write laws which cater to our citizen's selfish side, which always results in promises of money or services. It matters not that there is no money set aside for these ever increasing expenditures. The government has no real credit limit, that is, a limit set by an indifferent party which is binding. When congress runs into the "debt ceiling", as they will later this month, they simply raise it and issue more treasury bills (bonds). At this point two things might happen - First: those bonds sell out to all the countries, individuals and 401k's and the government has outside cash which they have no serious intention of ever really paying back; secondly: those investors may be reluctant to buy, in which case the Central Bank simply "buys" the bonds with brand new, made up money. This is why our admitted debt (bond obligations) just reached $20 trillion (that's a little over $165,000 per taxpayer).
In addition to no credit limit and the ability to print money, the third major difference is: the spender (gov) isn't on the hook to pay back the loan, they signed our collective names to the debt, it's ours! Our tax payers really do owe the $165,000, individually.
Here is where the public debt is exactly like an individual's debt: It must be paid back, otherwise it isn't a debt, but simply printed money. Remember those investors? They want their money back, with interest. Are we ready to invest more into the will-o-wisp called "healthcare" when we are already so deeply in the red? It gets worse. With a fiat currency (paper dollars) even the money is an I.O.U., because it has no inherent value. So added to the $20 trillion is every dollar which the Fed has issued and is held anywhere as savings and nobody knows how much that is.
This will play out badly whether we get healthcare or not. Soon, the rest of the world is going to tire of this scam in our favor and will demand much more actual stuff for our dollars and they will find other mediums with which to trade with each other. In other words, they will hold us to account and our standard of living will plummet, all because of an insupportable debt we ran up in a period of peace, for our own selfish interests.
Finally, it is rank immorality to borrow without intention to pay back. It is a crime against our children to sign their names to a debt, for which we benefited.
We must stop the borrowing now and as a nation who respects all people, resolve ourselves to paying it back. Let us dissolve Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid, Obamacare and all the rest, keep the payroll deductions and use that to honor our debts and to show the world that the honor of the United States is as good as gold.
1st: you didn't refute anything, and to claim so is very insulting. In point of fact this conversation began with me pointing out the disgusting history of the church, you asking to refute my claims and then instead of doing so launching into the same tired old arguments that have been put forth and refuted a thousand times. I was trying to end this discussion without having to go down this path because it never ends well but you refused so here we go. Remember, you wanted this:
Our Lady of Guadalupe. It's a painting. Some people claim they can see reflections of the past in here eyes. Others don't. Not very amazing "proof" of an all powerful god who can supposedly do anything. I've seen it, it's a very pretty painting.
The Tilma is literally the fiber mat on which the painting is painted. I'm assuming you are referring to the fact it hasn't decayed as proof of god? Again, pretty week "proof" if true, but here's the thing. It was tested and found to be made from hemp, not cactus as the church claims, and hemp is one of the most robust natural materials out there, again, hardly miraculous. Oh, and it doesn't baffle anyone that researches it, only those that blindly follow.
Our lady of Fatima. Three children see a vision of what they think is the Virgin Mary telling them she will perform a miracle at a certain time and place. The time arrives, thousands gather, and witness....clouds, then the sun. Some claim the sun was blurry and spinning, others don't. This is your proof? There is more intrigue in one of the statues that supposedly can drink milk in India, although those can be explained as well.
Our lady of Lourdes. Again, a child, I'm seeing a pattern here, claims to see the Virgin Mary in a spring. Supposedly if you drink from the spring you get cured of what ails you. Millions over the years drink and millions are cured, oh my god it's a miracle. Well, not really, millions did drink and there were a few (.000035%) that showed possible improvement in their conditions. Again, not much of a miracle for an all powerful god .
The Bible. The Bible includes both the old and new testaments. You claim it was assembled in Latin in the 300s and was the only version for 1100 years. Well, not quite. The Old Testament was fist written down around 400 BCE and "finished" around 116 BCE, in Hebrew. I put "finished" in quotes because people change it to fit their own needs regularly even back then, more on that later.
The New Testament was originally written in Greek, not Latin as you claim, was hardly the only version, and was changed many many times over the years. Remember when Constantine, that emperor of the eastern Roman Empire changed the capital to Constantinople, he had his own version written, that was in circa 330 CE. That's only one example.
So there you go, I have addressed all your claims, I'm sure you have more, they can be debunked too, but as a true believer that won't matter to you at all. You, on the other hand, never addressed any of mine, I wonder what that means?
Now, my turn.
You called me arrogant, not very Christian of you, but what is more arrogant, to claim to know exactly, and fully, the only way to eternal life or to say that I will live my life the best I can and hope others do the same?
"To solve the poverty crisis in Africa we need to get rid of the people." I never said that, you are trying to put words into my mouth, in effect lying, again not very Christian. What I did say was that the church has made the AIDS crises exponentially worse by preventing condom usage, and they have, you never addressed that point, probably because you know you can't.
You think my worldview is short? Yours is based entirely on your particular interpretation of a book that you don't even know the history of, as I demonstrated above by correcting your easily disprovable statements about the Bible.
You think that because multiple religions exist that one must be true, ergo it's yours. You claim this bothers me. Nothing could be further from the truth. I use the existence of multiple religions as evidence that NONE are true, among mounds of other evidence. Your conclusions require mental gymnastics of the sort only those trying to cram an absurd belief into the world are capable of.
I feel sorry for you, I truly do. You were brainwashed as a child into believing you had to behave a certain way, believe a certain thing, give money to a certain person, in order to avoid eternal torment. It should be criminally punishable child abuse.
You probably believed in Santa Clause at one point too, most of us did. A magical man who knows everything you do and loves you no matter what but will bring you coal if you misbehave and toys if you don't. Sound familiar? Santa is a gateway drug. I wish you could throw off the shackles of mythology that have so clouded your mind so you could see the beauty and wonder that is all around us, and has nothing to do with any gods. I fear it is too late for you but I won't give up hope, you have wasted enough of your life on fairy tales constructed to control you.
If you want to pray for me, go ahead if it makes you happy, you a literally saying that you will do nothing as that's what prayer is, nothing, just thoughts. I on the other hand will continue to work and try and make the world better for all of us, you and me.
And remember, I never called you any names, never attacked your faith, and even gave you an out for this whole conversation. You didn't want it, so this is the result.
Take care
Our Lady of Guadalupe. It's a painting. Some people claim they can see reflections of the past in here eyes. Others don't. Not very amazing "proof" of an all powerful god who can supposedly do anything. I've seen it, it's a very pretty painting.
The Tilma is literally the fiber mat on which the painting is painted. I'm assuming you are referring to the fact it hasn't decayed as proof of god? Again, pretty week "proof" if true, but here's the thing. It was tested and found to be made from hemp, not cactus as the church claims, and hemp is one of the most robust natural materials out there, again, hardly miraculous. Oh, and it doesn't baffle anyone that researches it, only those that blindly follow.
Our lady of Fatima. Three children see a vision of what they think is the Virgin Mary telling them she will perform a miracle at a certain time and place. The time arrives, thousands gather, and witness....clouds, then the sun. Some claim the sun was blurry and spinning, others don't. This is your proof? There is more intrigue in one of the statues that supposedly can drink milk in India, although those can be explained as well.
Our lady of Lourdes. Again, a child, I'm seeing a pattern here, claims to see the Virgin Mary in a spring. Supposedly if you drink from the spring you get cured of what ails you. Millions over the years drink and millions are cured, oh my god it's a miracle. Well, not really, millions did drink and there were a few (.000035%) that showed possible improvement in their conditions. Again, not much of a miracle for an all powerful god .
The Bible. The Bible includes both the old and new testaments. You claim it was assembled in Latin in the 300s and was the only version for 1100 years. Well, not quite. The Old Testament was fist written down around 400 BCE and "finished" around 116 BCE, in Hebrew. I put "finished" in quotes because people change it to fit their own needs regularly even back then, more on that later.
The New Testament was originally written in Greek, not Latin as you claim, was hardly the only version, and was changed many many times over the years. Remember when Constantine, that emperor of the eastern Roman Empire changed the capital to Constantinople, he had his own version written, that was in circa 330 CE. That's only one example.
So there you go, I have addressed all your claims, I'm sure you have more, they can be debunked too, but as a true believer that won't matter to you at all. You, on the other hand, never addressed any of mine, I wonder what that means?
Now, my turn.
You called me arrogant, not very Christian of you, but what is more arrogant, to claim to know exactly, and fully, the only way to eternal life or to say that I will live my life the best I can and hope others do the same?
"To solve the poverty crisis in Africa we need to get rid of the people." I never said that, you are trying to put words into my mouth, in effect lying, again not very Christian. What I did say was that the church has made the AIDS crises exponentially worse by preventing condom usage, and they have, you never addressed that point, probably because you know you can't.
You think my worldview is short? Yours is based entirely on your particular interpretation of a book that you don't even know the history of, as I demonstrated above by correcting your easily disprovable statements about the Bible.
You think that because multiple religions exist that one must be true, ergo it's yours. You claim this bothers me. Nothing could be further from the truth. I use the existence of multiple religions as evidence that NONE are true, among mounds of other evidence. Your conclusions require mental gymnastics of the sort only those trying to cram an absurd belief into the world are capable of.
I feel sorry for you, I truly do. You were brainwashed as a child into believing you had to behave a certain way, believe a certain thing, give money to a certain person, in order to avoid eternal torment. It should be criminally punishable child abuse.
You probably believed in Santa Clause at one point too, most of us did. A magical man who knows everything you do and loves you no matter what but will bring you coal if you misbehave and toys if you don't. Sound familiar? Santa is a gateway drug. I wish you could throw off the shackles of mythology that have so clouded your mind so you could see the beauty and wonder that is all around us, and has nothing to do with any gods. I fear it is too late for you but I won't give up hope, you have wasted enough of your life on fairy tales constructed to control you.
If you want to pray for me, go ahead if it makes you happy, you a literally saying that you will do nothing as that's what prayer is, nothing, just thoughts. I on the other hand will continue to work and try and make the world better for all of us, you and me.
And remember, I never called you any names, never attacked your faith, and even gave you an out for this whole conversation. You didn't want it, so this is the result.
Take care
Billy: Take care.
...just to clear the air some from a subject of which we are both very passionate, my feelings are not hurt and I too am impressed with our ability to go to the mat on a subject which has caused wars, without too much rancor. If I crossed the line with name calling, I do apologize. You were right, this conversation has run it's course and I sign out by wishing you and your family peace and prosperity in the future.
(4th commentator)
4th: Dude.....I think I understand why you took the time you did on this thread, but the reality is such, you cannot convince a drug addict to stop abusing drugs, they have to choose to themselves. This guy is seriously a waste of your time. Think of all the better, positive and productive things you could have spent YOUR valuable time on. Save these conversations for the people listening, not the people who are shouting.
Billy: I have learned my lesson. Thanks.
1st: that was actually pretty clever, you made me chuckle. Thanks for that.
(end)
I now feel like a rodeo cowboy who rode the bull; my butt hurts, I have mud in my face and the bull is still an atheist.
"To one who has faith, no explanation is necessary. To one without faith, no explanation is possible." St Thomas Aquinas